Kevin Says
Member
All calculations are based on 3 fixtures. If LED prices fall quickly, you benefit by waiting.
Electric bill
- Thread starter SkunkerX
- Start date
All calculations are based on 3 fixtures. If LED prices fall quickly, you benefit by waiting.
Funlad3
Well-known member
Nice, now I can afford some of those acros I've been wanting! Kevin, hook me up! I guess I'll finish up by saying to each, his own. Sure, LEDs are newer and haven't been proven in the long run. Sure, MH add a lot of heat directy to the tank and need bulb replacements. Still, both seem to grow coral ridiculously well, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Happy reefing!
Ok, well this is very basic, but I will type it out. For this example, I will even use your numbers, even though I
disagree with them and they are missing certain factors. While reading this keep in the back of your mind that these
numbers are incorrect. I am just trying to show that even with grossly overcalculated numbers, its still worth it.
In reality, the numbers to run/cool mh are much higher, and led numbers are much lower (relatively of course).
For this example we will use middle line equipment. Obviously we can skew the numbers when comparing the cheapest mh to
the most expensive leds and vice versa. We will be assuming you are buying both brand new for retail. (Another arguement
for leds is that they hold their value much much better than mh, which saves money when replacing, but thats for another
time.)
Prices:
Hamilton Technologies 3x250W MH with reflectors, fixture, and Standard Magnetic ballasts = 800
Replacement 250W Radium 20K bulb (one of the most popular bulbs), assuming replacement every 8 months = 70
AI SOL LED = 400 x 3 modules = 1200
Startup cost for LEDs are (1200-800 =) 400 dollars more.
One AI SOL is 'technically' comprable to a 270W MH bulb running only at 75W. In reality (testing output/PAR) we have
found that it is closer to a 400W mh. This has been proved through many independant tests. Running at a lower percent
to be equivalent to 250W will lower the Watts. However for the sake of this example, we will say that the 75W are
comprable to only 250W, even though we have done side-by-sides at MCF and the AI is very close to a 400W mh. So for
this example, the power consumption of an AI compared to a 250W mh would be 75W/250W = 0.30 (30%). But remember, in
reality, it is considerably less.
Since you used the amount it would take to cool an LED fixture into consideration, I will also. Even though this is
completely inaccurate, we will assume the percentage is linear as you did.
As you stated:
Cost to run 3x250w mh = 0.80 / day
Cost to cool 3x250w mh = 0.80 / day
Cost to run + cool 3x250W mh = 1.60 / day
Cost to run + cool 3xAI LEDs = 1.60 / day * 0.3 = 0.48 / day
Roughly 365 days in a year, for 8 average months = (365 / 12) * 8 = 243 days
Cost to run + cool 3x250W mh for 243 days = 1.60 * 243 = 388.80 + (70*3) = 598.80 (Added cost of 3 replacement bulbs)
Cost to run + cool 3xAI LEDs for 243 days = 0.48 * 243 days = 116.64
So after 8 months (243 days), the mh cost 598.80 to run+cool and the leds cost 116.64 to run+cool. A difference of
(598.80-116.64) = 482.16 (per 8 months). This more than cancels out the 400 extra dollars spent on buying the LEDs.
Startup Cost + running cost for 8 months for 3x250w mh = 800 + 598.80 = 1398.80
Startup Cost + running cost for 8 months for 3x AI LEDs = 1200 + 116.64 = 1316.64
Using your numbers, which are too low on the mh side and too high on the led side (and missing parameters), we are able
to see that after only 8 months, metal halides are already costing more than leds. With correct numbers, this point
will be significantly before 8 months.
Going forward, you will save 482.16 for every 8 months you continue to run LEDs. Or saving 60.27 a month.
Lets assume your incorrect statement that the LEDs will need to be replaced in 5 years.
We already know that for every 8 months, the difference is 482.16. This means that after 5 years, the difference will be
((5*12) / 8 ) * 482.16 = 3616.20.
Which would be enough to buy 9 AI LED modules! Or replace all 3 of your AI's, three times!
Not to mention this is assuming that mh fixture and ballasts run flawlessly for 5 years and never need to be replaced.
This is also assuming you have to buy a whole new led module, instead of just new led pucks which are $25 each,(*8 = ) $200 per module
This is also assuming that after 5 years, there is no advancement in LED technology and prices are still the same.
Must reiterate again, these are the LOW estimates. In reality you save significantly more. Even using these grossly
underestimated numbers toward mh, its still a lot more expensive to run mh than LEDs.
If you do not understand this, it would be pointless to go into anything more advanced. Hence, why I wanted to just leave this alone.
Note: In this we are not debating which technology is better for coral growth/color. Rather, the cost of each.
disagree with them and they are missing certain factors. While reading this keep in the back of your mind that these
numbers are incorrect. I am just trying to show that even with grossly overcalculated numbers, its still worth it.
In reality, the numbers to run/cool mh are much higher, and led numbers are much lower (relatively of course).
For this example we will use middle line equipment. Obviously we can skew the numbers when comparing the cheapest mh to
the most expensive leds and vice versa. We will be assuming you are buying both brand new for retail. (Another arguement
for leds is that they hold their value much much better than mh, which saves money when replacing, but thats for another
time.)
Prices:
Hamilton Technologies 3x250W MH with reflectors, fixture, and Standard Magnetic ballasts = 800
Replacement 250W Radium 20K bulb (one of the most popular bulbs), assuming replacement every 8 months = 70
AI SOL LED = 400 x 3 modules = 1200
Startup cost for LEDs are (1200-800 =) 400 dollars more.
One AI SOL is 'technically' comprable to a 270W MH bulb running only at 75W. In reality (testing output/PAR) we have
found that it is closer to a 400W mh. This has been proved through many independant tests. Running at a lower percent
to be equivalent to 250W will lower the Watts. However for the sake of this example, we will say that the 75W are
comprable to only 250W, even though we have done side-by-sides at MCF and the AI is very close to a 400W mh. So for
this example, the power consumption of an AI compared to a 250W mh would be 75W/250W = 0.30 (30%). But remember, in
reality, it is considerably less.
Since you used the amount it would take to cool an LED fixture into consideration, I will also. Even though this is
completely inaccurate, we will assume the percentage is linear as you did.
As you stated:
Cost to run 3x250w mh = 0.80 / day
Cost to cool 3x250w mh = 0.80 / day
Cost to run + cool 3x250W mh = 1.60 / day
Cost to run + cool 3xAI LEDs = 1.60 / day * 0.3 = 0.48 / day
Roughly 365 days in a year, for 8 average months = (365 / 12) * 8 = 243 days
Cost to run + cool 3x250W mh for 243 days = 1.60 * 243 = 388.80 + (70*3) = 598.80 (Added cost of 3 replacement bulbs)
Cost to run + cool 3xAI LEDs for 243 days = 0.48 * 243 days = 116.64
So after 8 months (243 days), the mh cost 598.80 to run+cool and the leds cost 116.64 to run+cool. A difference of
(598.80-116.64) = 482.16 (per 8 months). This more than cancels out the 400 extra dollars spent on buying the LEDs.
Startup Cost + running cost for 8 months for 3x250w mh = 800 + 598.80 = 1398.80
Startup Cost + running cost for 8 months for 3x AI LEDs = 1200 + 116.64 = 1316.64
Using your numbers, which are too low on the mh side and too high on the led side (and missing parameters), we are able
to see that after only 8 months, metal halides are already costing more than leds. With correct numbers, this point
will be significantly before 8 months.
Going forward, you will save 482.16 for every 8 months you continue to run LEDs. Or saving 60.27 a month.
Lets assume your incorrect statement that the LEDs will need to be replaced in 5 years.
We already know that for every 8 months, the difference is 482.16. This means that after 5 years, the difference will be
((5*12) / 8 ) * 482.16 = 3616.20.
Which would be enough to buy 9 AI LED modules! Or replace all 3 of your AI's, three times!
Not to mention this is assuming that mh fixture and ballasts run flawlessly for 5 years and never need to be replaced.
This is also assuming you have to buy a whole new led module, instead of just new led pucks which are $25 each,(*8 = ) $200 per module
This is also assuming that after 5 years, there is no advancement in LED technology and prices are still the same.
Must reiterate again, these are the LOW estimates. In reality you save significantly more. Even using these grossly
underestimated numbers toward mh, its still a lot more expensive to run mh than LEDs.
If you do not understand this, it would be pointless to go into anything more advanced. Hence, why I wanted to just leave this alone.
Note: In this we are not debating which technology is better for coral growth/color. Rather, the cost of each.
He just verbed my graphs! Thanks for the explanation Greg.
Pretty much, lol. I just had to type it out.
Needless to say I do not think this conversation will ever evolve to the point of debating thermodynamic properties of mh fixtures vs led modules because I proved LEDs are worth it using his own underestimated mh numbers!
I tried to leave it alone, but I felt bad for anyone who may read this thread.
prestige-led
New member
Great example greg. This should have never been a mathematical issue,but seeing this in letters and numbers might help many people out.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Kevin Says
Member
This thread started out with my electric bill is high and I am running MH. Then people chimed in and said you should switch to LEDs because it will save you money. That's a common scenario. For most people considering use of LEDs, they already have lighting for their tank. That's a sunk cost. Whether you decide to make the switch or not, you are not going to see most of your investment back in your MH setup. As for your statement that 75W AI SOL is technically equivalent to 270W MH, this is not true. Ecotech guys are a bit more honest and say their 120W Radion is equivalent to 250W MH. A lot of people have stated that one Radion is equivalent to 2 AI Sols. Heck, the recommendation from the company itself is one AI SOL per 12 inch square for SPS. That's equivalent to 250W MH? I don't thinks so. As for LEDs needing to be replaced in 5 years, that's being really generous. For most people, it won't last that long. MTBF of 50,000 hours is not that long if you understand what that number really is. T5 lights have MTBF of 20,000 hours. I expect LEDs' usable lifetime to be much closer to its MTBF than T5 lights, but one thing for sure, it does not last forever. Your math is garbage in, garbage out. If you want to justify your LED purchase, say it is cooler and cutting edge. Financially, it doesn't make sense if you already have functioning lights.
yogoshio
New member
Kevin, just admit you're wrong 
Time and time again its proven that LED's are cheaper lifetime cost. And in multiple scenarios on here, using numbers you provided, we proved you wrong. Time to lay down arms.
If you want to keep dumping money into bulbs, fine by me, but to argue that the information presented isn't accurate or proven, that's ridiculous.
Time and time again its proven that LED's are cheaper lifetime cost. And in multiple scenarios on here, using numbers you provided, we proved you wrong. Time to lay down arms.
If you want to keep dumping money into bulbs, fine by me, but to argue that the information presented isn't accurate or proven, that's ridiculous.
FishBeard
New member
Or the rest of you can just quit feeding the troll and let the thread die... It's gone far beyond its "funny" usefulness now. You proved him wrong, congrats, now dissect his latest pointless argument and continue this ping-pong game. It's all wasted effort in the end. I don't have either mh or led, or a chiller, and my corals are all still pretty when I look at them. To be honest, if you need to analyze "cost savings" in this hobby, maybe you need a different hobby altogether because fundamentally, reefing = money pit, and that's one equation you can't change.
Kevin Says
Member
Kevin, just admit you're wrong
Time and time again its proven that LED's are cheaper lifetime cost. And in multiple scenarios on here, using numbers you provided, we proved you wrong. Time to lay down arms.
If you want to keep dumping money into bulbs, fine by me, but to argue that the information presented isn't accurate or proven, that's ridiculous.
People have not been running LEDs long enough to know what it really costs. If you need to replace your LED setup in 4 years, you are shelling out more money in LED bulbs than MH. Is that so hard to understand? According to Ecotech guys, LEDs will save 50% in power usage over MH. Is that wrong? AI sol is good for 12 inch square and that's equal to 270W MH? Really? LEDs carry MTBF of 50,000 hours including Radion. Is that wrong too? I stand by everything that I have said.
ReeFantasy
New member
I've never seen such stubborness in my life. It seems you have something against led or led technology. If you got stuck with mh and cannot afford leds i see your argument in not wanting to switch,but facts are facts.
My electric bill before my 180 aquarium was $58,after my aquarium with prestige-leds my total light bill is $77-81.
My friend who lives in the exact same size condo has a 150g tank and runs a giesseman mh/t5 fixture,his electric bill is $158-$171 depends how much he has to crank up his A/C to keep his tank cool!! Gus already came by with a kill-a-watt meter and showed his lights drawing almost 4times less energy!! Needless to say he placed his order for some leds.
We have passed the cro-magnon era and should all eventually invest in better equipment especially lighting. It just makes sense.
My electric bill before my 180 aquarium was $58,after my aquarium with prestige-leds my total light bill is $77-81.
My friend who lives in the exact same size condo has a 150g tank and runs a giesseman mh/t5 fixture,his electric bill is $158-$171 depends how much he has to crank up his A/C to keep his tank cool!! Gus already came by with a kill-a-watt meter and showed his lights drawing almost 4times less energy!! Needless to say he placed his order for some leds.
We have passed the cro-magnon era and should all eventually invest in better equipment especially lighting. It just makes sense.
FishBeard
New member
:golfclap: thank you for your insight, I am sure it will be well received.
KeishaKornbread
Banned
I've been running my LEDs since January and my electric bill has not changed at all. Since I have had my tank, my TV usage as declined substantially. Most days it doesn't turn on except for the morning news.
Yah I am done, even after being proven wrong over and over and over, he will continue to troll along.
My math is apparently 'garbage in, garbage out'. I was using his numbers. :/
This is why I usually dont argue with people. Figured I may help some people with their power bill though.
I am reverting to by original advise to him: Goodluck!
My math is apparently 'garbage in, garbage out'. I was using his numbers. :/
This is why I usually dont argue with people. Figured I may help some people with their power bill though.
I am reverting to by original advise to him: Goodluck!
Lil BamBam
Premium member
Oh yes!!!! OT time to cool down
