hippo tang and ich... ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

FishBeard said:
This is wrong. Not all tanks have Ich. The reason your tang has bouts that come and go is that it builds an immunity to fight off the Ich parasite naturally. When you see those flare ups is when that natural defense has faded off. Nitrates and ammonia have nothing to do with Ich other than stressing a fish out making them more susceptible to the parasite. If your tank has had Ich, and has fish in it, the Ich never goes away, whether the fish show signs or not. Proper treatment of the fish and allowing the life cycle of the Ich to complete with no fish in the tank to start a new cycle can completely rid the tank of Ich.
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Bob Fenner says that once Ich is introduced, it is extremely difficult to eliminate it from your tank. Going fallow for 8 weeks will kill most but may not rid the tank of ich. In fact, he says that the biggest benefit of going fallow for 8 weeks is that you reduce the population to such that most fish can deal with it. But there is no guarantee and it may come back. Unfortunately, a lot of people found this out the hard way.
 
Kevin Says said:
Bob Fenner says that once Ich is introduced, it is extremely difficult to eliminate it from your tank. Going fallow for 8 weeks will kill most but may not rid the tank of ich. In fact, he says that the biggest benefit of going fallow for 8 weeks is that you reduce the population to such that most fish can deal with it. But there is no guarantee and it may come back. Unfortunately, a lot of people found this out the hard way.
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That is entirely correct. There have been some studies that have shown Cryptocaryon irritans present in tanks that have been fallow for up to 14 weeks (probably even longer but that's as long as the study went). I like Fenner but his latest FAMA article on Moorish Idols left something to be desired.
 
Kevin Says said:
Bob Fenner says that once Ich is introduced, it is extremely difficult to eliminate it from your tank. Going fallow for 8 weeks will kill most but may not rid the tank of ich. In fact, he says that the biggest benefit of going fallow for 8 weeks is that you reduce the population to such that most fish can deal with it. But there is no guarantee and it may come back. Unfortunately, a lot of people found this out the hard way.
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This is why most people do a full 10+ week fallow period. Ich simply can not survive without a host. Ich can not go dormant for an extended period either. It MUST run the natural course of its life cycle. 8 weeks is the minimum recommended fallow period, but is not guaranteed to rid your tank completely, 10+ weeks provides enough extra time to essentially guarantee your tank Ich free.
 
Kevin Says said:
Bob Fenner says that once Ich is introduced, it is extremely difficult to eliminate it from your tank. Going fallow for 8 weeks will kill most but may not rid the tank of ich. In fact, he says that the biggest benefit of going fallow for 8 weeks is that you reduce the population to such that most fish can deal with it. But there is no guarantee and it may come back. Unfortunately, a lot of people found this out the hard way.
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I'd like to read up on the research he is basing his opinion on, do you happen to have a link? To me, it sems pretty simple. Ich cannot live without a fish to host it and its cyst's life cycle is fixed. Unless the cyst can put itself into hybernation or something equivalent, I don't see how this can happen. I have never heard anywhere that a cyst can hibernate.

I just did some research on what Fenner says....

About "Crypt Free" Systems:

"There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes. In actual fact cysts of Cryptocaryon can stay viable for a few to several months, hence ultraviolet sterilization, use of biological cleaners, allowing systems to go fallow... only decreases the number and virulence of these parasites. Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."

He's saying that the cysts will eventually die in a fallow tank. What the article I read doesn't say is how long they can potentially live. "...a few to several months..." is vague. It would be interesting to know who did this research and how long these cysts can live for.
 
EricTheRed said:
I'd like to read up on the research he is basing his opinion on, do you happen to have a link? To me, it sems pretty simple. Ich cannot live without a fish to host it and its cyst's life cycle is fixed. Unless the cyst can put itself into hybernation or something equivalent, I don't see how this can happen. I have never heard anywhere that a cyst can hibernate.

I just did some research on what Fenner says....

About "Crypt Free" Systems:

"There are such things, but unless the aquarist is diligent in altogether excluding these parasites through quarantine, treatment outside their main displays, most aquariums will instead host latent infestations... with discernible populations of Cryptocaryon coming to be through environmental challenge/s to their fishes. In actual fact cysts of Cryptocaryon can stay viable for a few to several months, hence ultraviolet sterilization, use of biological cleaners, allowing systems to go fallow... only decreases the number and virulence of these parasites. Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."

He's saying that the cysts will eventually die in a fallow tank. What the article I read doesn't say is how long they can potentially live. "...a few to several months..." is vague. It would be interesting to know who did this research and how long these cysts can live for.
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Bob Fenner and company have received numerous feedback from their readers that going fallow for 8-10 weeks didn't work for them. And there are plenty of people on RC who have stated the same thing. One researcher has theorized that some cysts do not hatch in absence of fish hormone. And they can stay as cysts almost indefinitely until fish are introduced back in the tank. Pretty scary stuff.
 
Excerpt taken from a highly informative thread on reefsanctuary:

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

Thread can be found here:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
 
SkullV said:
That is entirely correct. There have been some studies that have shown Cryptocaryon irritans present in tanks that have been fallow for up to 14 weeks (probably even longer but that's as long as the study went). I like Fenner but his latest FAMA article on Moorish Idols left something to be desired.
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I would like to read his article on Moorish Idols. Do you have the link?
 
EricTheRed said:
All new fish should be QT'd for 4 weeks. Not only does it give you a chance to look for disease, but it also allows the fish to become accoustomed to tank life and prepared foods in a low-stress environment. Some people treat ALL new fish with copper and some wait to see if disease develops before treating. I like to use Cupramine by Seachem because it is easier on fish than straight copper. It's a matter of personal preference. However, you should always treat tangs/surgeons because of their high propensity to catch ich. It's also a good idea to treat all wild-caught clowns for brooklynella with formalin. Another good thing to do is treat all fish for worms (%30 of all wild-caught fish have worms) using praziquantel.
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That's the copper treatment I've been using. the Cupramine by Seachem. And wow... i had no idea there was so much to QT-ing a fish... Looks like I'll have to start reading about proper QT technics as this is definately lesson learned. Also is nice that i finally got a larger QT than a 10gal. All my fish should be more comfortable in a 20L.

FishBeard said:
This is wrong. Not all tanks have Ich. The reason your tang has bouts that come and go is that it builds an immunity to fight off the Ich parasite naturally. When you see those flare ups is when that natural defense has faded off. Nitrates and ammonia have nothing to do with Ich other than stressing a fish out making them more susceptible to the parasite. If your tank has had Ich, and has fish in it, the Ich never goes away, whether the fish show signs or not. Proper treatment of the fish and allowing the life cycle of the Ich to complete with no fish in the tank to start a new cycle can completely rid the tank of Ich.
Click to expand...

Is there any possiblity that maybe a few parasites are left behind somehow even after the 8-10week period? I assume there is no way to test it besides letting fish into the tank after the fallow period and observing.

EDIT: forgot to read the 3rd page... looks like it's a risk either way? I may have to do longer than 10 weeks then... but what Kevin is saying still leaves me weary...
 
Kevin Says said:
Bob Fenner and company have received numerous feedback from their readers that going fallow for 8-10 weeks didn't work for them. And there are plenty of people on RC who have stated the same thing. One researcher has theorized that some cysts do not hatch in absence of fish hormone. And they can stay as cysts almost indefinitely until fish are introduced back in the tank. Pretty scary stuff.
Click to expand...

Well, in lieu of nothing, I'd still do an 8-10 week fallow period as opposed to not doing it at all and taking my chances. Aside from anecdotal eveidence provided by hobbiests, there are enough very knowledgable people who support a fallow period. I haven't read everything by Fenner but it sounds like he recommends it even if the outcome may only be a reduction in the parasite.

Almost everything I've ever learned about fish diseases & cures etc. has come from the guy (Lee) who wrote the article that Fishbeard posted. He's even personally assisted me with some issues I've had in the past.
 
FishBeard said:
Excerpt taken from a highly informative thread on reefsanctuary:

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

Thread can be found here:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it is proving to be rather common. Read SkullV's post that says Crypt was present after 14 weeks. I've read many articles that say cysts can stay dormant indefinitely.
 
helitaiwan963 said:
That's the copper treatment I've been using. the Cupramine by Seachem. And wow... i had no idea there was so much to QT-ing a fish... Looks like I'll have to start reading about proper QT technics as this is definately lesson learned. Also is nice that i finally got a larger QT than a 10gal. All my fish should be more comfortable in a 20L....
Click to expand...

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums.../23584-fish-quarantine-process-step-step.html


helitaiwan963 said:
Is there any possiblity that maybe a few parasites are left behind somehow even after the 8-10week period?...
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Well, it sounds like it is possible, but still your best way to (try and) rid your tank of ich.
 
man, this is bumming me out reading this. Almost leaves me with no hope. haha, for my next tank... time to invest in a proper QT setup now in iowa too...
 
helitaiwan963 said:
That's the copper treatment I've been using. the Cupramine by Seachem. And wow... i had no idea there was so much to QT-ing a fish... Looks like I'll have to start reading about proper QT technics as this is definately lesson learned. Also is nice that i finally got a larger QT than a 10gal. All my fish should be more comfortable in a 20L.



Is there any possiblity that maybe a few parasites are left behind somehow even after the 8-10week period? I assume there is no way to test it besides letting fish into the tank after the fallow period and observing.

EDIT: forgot to read the 3rd page... looks like it's a risk either way? I may have to do longer than 10 weeks then... but what Kevin is saying still leaves me weary...
Click to expand...

I have done ridiculous amount of reading on the topic after getting Ich about 7 months ago. I've lost the fish that came infected but I've not lost a fish since. I fed my fish Metrodinazole for a month. Seemed to have done the trick. Yes, it is probably in my tank. But according to Bob Fenner, you are screwed once it enters your system.
 
I have had luck with 2 different treatments

125 gal reef tank first grind ginger root in a blender and soak the food in it. feed the fish for a week. worked great and has not returned. it has been about 5 months since i used it

second kordons ich attack used half the dose and work good in a reef tank with 2 clowns rbta corals and snails crabs shrimp nothing died.

I would use the gringer root first

just my opinion
 
TotalPetsPlus said:
I have had luck with 2 different treatments

125 gal reef tank first grind ginger root in a blender and soak the food in it. feed the fish for a week. worked great and has not returned. it has been about 5 months since i used it

second kordons ich attack used half the dose and work good in a reef tank with 2 clowns rbta corals and snails crabs shrimp nothing died.

I would use the gringer root first

just my opinion
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Interesting... Well the fish are in QT already... So when it's time to reintroduce them into the DT, im' gonna try that ginger trick. Never seen anyone do that! I feed spectrum thera A pellets. I can soak those in the ginger right? And i assume the mysis i also feed would be fine as well?


-Eric
 
I've done hyposalinity and have seen no changes in bio filtration,whatever is alive only multiplies.
 
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