live rock?

Delbeek explains it like this:

"The use of live rock immediately introduces into the aquarium numerous algae, bacteria and small invertebrates all of which contribute to the overall quality of the aquarium water. Live rock has just as much, if not more, surface area for bacteria than a trickle filter. Since live rock in the aquarium contains various types of bacteria, algae and corals, waste products such as ammonia, nitrate and phosphate can have a number of fates. Ammonia, nitrate and phosphate are readily assimilated by algae and photosynthetic corals growing on and in the rock. Ammonia can also be quickly converted into nitrate by the bacteria on and in the rock. This nitrate can be either absorbed by the algae and corals, or it can be denitrified by bacteria in close proximity to the nitrate producing bacteria."

Based on that, the life on and in base or dried rock no longer exists so it at that point become decorative more than biological, the small percentage of life that will transfer to base rock which is limited to algae and some limited forms of surface forms of bacteria will not make it "live" again.
 
seeding dry rock with the bacteria/algae growing from live rock is what he was saying.

as far as the harvesting rock from the farms in the gulf, false. that rock was dumped in the early 90's as part of an agreement with the government. so they are harvesting and replacing rock that has 10 years, if not more of life in the ocean, and go look at my rock harvested from there, it is definitely hugely different, and will always be different.
 
http://www.fishlore.com/live_rock.htm

What is Live Rock?
Live Rock is rubble that has broken off a coral reef structure by natural means such as hurricanes and tropical storms. This broken off rubble is called live rock because of all the living organisms that are found on and within the rock. Many types of algae, crabs, marine worms, small crustaceans, bacteria and other life forms make their homes on the reef structures found in the ocean and when you buy saltwater live rock you'll most likely be getting some of these organisms. There are numerous benefits from using this rock in your marine aquarium and we'll explore some of these benefits now.

Aside from an abundance of saltwater aquarium keeping information, live rock could be considered one of the primary reasons so many people are successfully keeping saltwater tanks these days.

New rock, curing in the tank

Same rock, 3 months later

Live rock is usually extremely porous and is used as the primary biological filter in saltwater tanks that have it. The many holes and crannies in this rock give it a tremendous amount of surface area for the beneficial aerobic (needs oxygen) and anaerobic (does not need oxygen) bacteria to live on. This is what makes live rock such a great biological filter for your tank. The beneficial bacteria helps convert the ammonia from fish waste and uneaten fish food into nitrIte. The second step is when this bacteria converts the nitrIte into nitrAte. The last step is when the anaerobic bacteria converts the nitrAte into harmless nitrogen gas that escapes via the water surface. If you're curious to find out more information on this cycle, please read the aquarium nitrogen cycle page.
How well saltwater live rock can completely cycle the aquarium has a lot to do with how much rock you have in your aquarium. Many hobbyists try to get at least 1 pound per gallon for fish only tanks (FOWLR) and 2 pounds or more per gallon for reef tank setup. You'll definitely need to monitor and test your water quality periodically to check for nitrAtes. If your readings are out of the acceptable range for your tank inhabitants you will need to perform water changes to bring the nitrAte levels within acceptable range.

As your fish grow they will produce more wastes and they may end up producing too much for your rock to adequately filter. Using a protein skimmer is still recommended with live rock tanks.

Saltwater Live Rock Benefits
Some of the benefits that you can expect from using live rock:

Saltwater live rock is a fantastic biological filter
Provides many hiding and living spaces for your saltwater fish and invertebrates
Can be a source of food for your saltwater fish and invertebrates
Purple and pink Coralline algae that will grow on the rock can be extremely attractive.


The many organisms that spring to life after your rock has finally cured can be just as fascinating as the fish in your tank. We can't tell you how many hours we have wasted just looking for what's new on our rocks.
Rock scaped saltwater aquariums are more natural looking. It's kind of like having a heavily planted freshwater aquarium
You can easily attach corals in a reef tank setup to live rock using aquarium safe glue and you can sometimes even insert the plug corals come on into a natural hole or crevice in the rock.
You should have a much better experience with keeping saltwater fish if you use live rock because of the biological filter and food source reasons.
3 month old rock

While researching saltwater live rock you're going to come across some different types of rock. There are basically two main types of live rock - cured and uncured.

Pre-Cured or Cured Live Rock
Cured live rock is rock that has been in the retailer's tank for a few weeks, at least. The retailer will scrub off any dead or dying organisms from the face of the rock and then cure it by placing it in a high-circulation curing tank. They also sometimes spray a continuous mist of saltwater over the rock that helps to remove the dead organisms. After a few weeks or even a month of this process the rock is considered ready to ship.

Getting cured live rock is going to cost much more than getting uncured live rock but it's usually worth the extra expense. Curing live rock in your home can be a very smelly and dirty project.

Even though there can be a significant die off during the curing process, many of the living organisms make it through the pre-curing process at the retailer. You will still need to cure it again once you get it home because some of the organisms will have died during shipment before it reaches your house. It just won't take as long to cure again as uncured live rock. Because of the die off during shipment, you should never place live rock (pre-cured or uncured) into an established tank. Doing so may cause an ammonia spike.

Uncured Live Rock
Uncured live rock is usually a third of the price of cured rock. Hobbyists on an extremely tight budget usually opt for this type of rock. The major drawback is that you're going to see a much greater die off rate then the pre-cured rock and you'll need to get the materials to do the curing process yourself.

If you're setting up a new tank with no other livestock in the tank yet, you can cure the saltwater live rock in the new tank. If not, you can use cheap plastic containers or trash cans as the curing containers. After you scrub off the dead organisms and other debris from the rock, place it in the curing container. An old tooth brush can work fairly well for scrubbing off the dead organisms. Hook up a thermometer, a powerhead and a protein skimmer to the container. Fill the containers with premixed, aged saltwater and you're ready to go. You will need to monitor the water parameters with your test kit(s) for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and perform frequent water changes during the curing process. Once you no longer detect ammonia and nitrite and there is no longer a foul smell, you can consider the process complete. How long it takes depends on the shape the rocks in when you start the process.

New rock, fresh from dealer

Same rock, 3 months later


Live Rock Types
These are some of the types of live rock you may come across:

Base Rock - This is rock that is usually found "under the pile" and it is usually a little cheaper than the other types of rock because it has less living organisms and algae living on the surface. You can save a few dollars by using this as the base to the rock structure in your tank.
Pacific Rock - This is rock that comes from Fiji, the Marshall Islands, Indonesia and other locations in the Pacific. It is usually the better choice because it is more porous than the other types of rock. It will also usually have more caves and holes in it. Frequently, this is the most expensive type of rock. It can sometimes be labeled as Pacific Rock or Fiji Premium Rock.
Atlantic Rock, Gulf Rock and Caribbean Rock - This is rock that comes from each area as labeled. It is usually not as porous as the other types of rock and might not be the best choice for your tank.
Aqua Cultured - This is porous rock that has been placed in the ocean artificially and left for several years so that beneficial bacteria and other organisms can populate the rock. This is the most environment friendly type of live rock you can get.
Where Can I Get Live Rock?
Once you start looking for saltwater live rock you're going to realize that this stuff can cost some serious money. However, think about what it takes to get this material from the ocean. Divers must collect it, retailers have to pre-cure it and then finally deliver it to your door. If you live in the middle of your country be prepared to pay even more in shipping costs. If you're lucky enough to live in a coastal area or you have access to a really good saltwater pet shop that stocks live rock, you can save alot of money in shipping costs by picking it up yourself. Use a search engine and enter "buy live rock" or something similar. If you come across a retailer that you've never heard of you should use the search engine and research them or sign up in a saltwater fish forum (we have one here, the forum links is in the left navigation) and get recommendations from other hobbyists before buying.
The best part about all of this is that Saltwater live rock can be a renewable resource if harvesters practice proper collection techniques. Unfortunately, many do not practice proper collection techniques for the sake of money. This is both short sighted and foolish. Check with buddies or check on forums for recommendations for a good retailer. Try to find out how the rock is being collected before you buy it. You may not get a straight answer, but we need to be diligent in not rewarding those that harm the environment and the coral reefs.
 
Guess we will all have to just agree to disagree, like I said initially and in most my posts for that matter, there are LOTS of opinions, tests, research, etc that support either theory.

What you need to do is separate advertisers or people trying to profit from their theory then decide what theory you believe and yes that can always change as new information is made available. Mine has not even with people who like to copy and paste random articles supporting thiers, there are always going to be articles. I support my theory out of experience. I remember 15-20 years ago, LR was nothing like it was today. There were massavie amount of life because it did come directly from the ocean and yes you risked some of the pests but they were not frequent, sellers of "seeded" rock or people who dont belive the cost of actual LR is worth it will try to scare you into believing that you will have a disaster if you dont use cultivated or seeded rock, BS!!!

My theory is this:

To state that a base rock is "alive" just because it has had time in a tank to develop some bacteria on it is misleading, if that was the case, then I have "live" glass, and "live" plastic in my tank. As the filtering bacteria will grow on anything you put in the water.
 
that is the point.

articles that are researched and have citations in them, are not trying to sell things. IMO if you disregard articles because you think you know best becuase you have a reef tank is short sided. nobody has all the answers, ever.
 
scotty said:
that is the point.

articles that are researched and have citations in them, are not trying to sell things. IMO if you disregard articles because you think you know best becuase you have a reef tank is short sided. nobody has all the answers, ever.
Click to expand...

Articles and research only go so far and my point is no matter what someone copies and pastes, anyone can copy and paste a opposite view. Not to avoid artices or research but to look at a of them and then, you have to make your own decision based on what works for your particular tank not a average or norm....

Oh and by the way, companies like Blueline, Marine Land, Aqua C and so on all have "artices with citations" and yes, they are slanted towards their product in order to sell you their goods, just like articles put out by the oil companies that say everything is safe, or vegetable farmers who say the spray they use does more good than bad and so on and so on..... Same as car article in Motor Trend, do you realy beieve a company who takes advertising for the same car they are reviewing will point out al the real negatives?? There are more "SALE" articles than you think...
 
I think the real debate here is over which live rock is better, not necessarily what the definition of live rock is.

Obviously you have base rock. This can be dead coral or synthetic. There is nothing alive on this rock, and it is for all intents and purposes dead.

Then you have live rock. This can be synthetic rock that has been cultured in the ocean, this can be dead coral harvested from a wild reef, or this can be base rock (either type) that has been cured and cycled. All of these are live rocks. If they aren't, then lets talk about the major disparity in the naming convention. What exactly is base rock that is cured and cycled if not live rock?

This debate is about which is better. It is true that cured and cycled base rock will not house the array of organisms that can be found in the wild. Some people see this as a major downfall, others see this as a positive. Not having to deal with unwanted hitchikers. This is all subjective and opinions.

Does cured base rock perform as a biological filtration system equally with harvested live rock of either synthetic or natural? I believe the answer to this question is yes. I don't think that a tank stocked with 100% harvested live rock will perform any better as a biological filtration center.

For that reason, I think the argument here is over nothing more than preference.
 
jcarlilesiu said:
. What exactly is base rock that is cured and cycled if not live rock?

.
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Decoration, how and what exatly are you curing and cycling on base rock? Curing and cycling is to my understanding the process of alowing the die off to complete the cycle (ammon, nitrite, nitrate and finaly nitrogen gas) There is nothing to die off on base rock, it is already either synthetic or dead with no life left. Base rock can be cleaned and put into a dispay, no curing needed.
 
P.Olsen said:
Decoration, how and what exatly are you curing and cycling on base rock? Curing and cycling is to my understanding the process of alowing the die off to complete the cycle (ammon, nitrite, nitrate and finaly nitrogen gas) There is nothing to die off on base rock, it is already either synthetic or dead with no life left. Base rock can be cleaned and put into a dispay, no curing needed.
Click to expand...

Right.

Once that base rock is put into the display and aquires nitrifying bacteria, coraline algae, sponges from other rocks, and various other growths... what is it?
 
jcarlilesiu said:
Right.

Once that base rock is put into the display and aquires nitrifying bacteria, coraline algae, sponges from other rocks, and various other growths... what is it?
Click to expand...

Decoration with algae and surface life just like the growth that is on my overfows, they also have sponges, coraline and bacterias on them, or my back glass because it does not get cleaned, just because there is life on it does that make them live to? I put this into the same catagory as lighitng or filtration, different opinions and that is great IMO, if we all thought the same way, ate the same foods, wore the same cothes this would be a REALLY boring planet..
 
great site,great advices,thanks guys:)

Another question:
to cycle my tank with 80lbs base rock should i add few #of live rock and cup of live sand from estabilshed tank? or just start "really fresh" with dry rock without any lr?
 
P.Olsen said:
Decoration with algae and surface life just like the growth that is on my overfows, they also have sponges, coraline and bacterias on them, or my back glass because it does not get cleaned, just because there is life on it does that make them live to? I put this into the same catagory as lighitng or filtration, different opinions and that is great IMO, if we all thought the same way, ate the same foods, wore the same cothes this would be a REALLY boring planet..
Click to expand...

Ok, so what is in the live rock cultivated from the ocean that does not exist on base rock which has underwent a cycle?
 
kurens said:
great site,great advices,thanks guys:)

Another question:
to cycle my tank with 80lbs base rock should i add few #of live rock and cup of live sand from estabilshed tank? or just start "really fresh" with dry rock without any lr?
Click to expand...

You will want to add some established live rock to the system to bring in elements that will be existing from your base rock. Coraline algae is one example. You base rock will not develop coraline without it being seeded from somewhere, and a piece of live rock with good growth on it would do the trick.

Save the live sand. Most of it is dead anyway by the time it makes it to your tank. Cycle your tank with a raw uncooked shrimp or other decaying matter that will start the nitrogen cycle.
 
jcarlilesiu said:
Ok, so what is in the live rock cultivated from the ocean that does not exist on base rock which has underwent a cycle?
Click to expand...

Are we talking base or cultivated because the initial question was about base and dried rock not cultivated.

There is decent cultivated rock but that takes YEARS in the ocean, check out Tampa Bay Saltwaters web site, they have some videos of them retreiving cultivated rock and at one point he says the rock he is puling up has been under water for 10 yrs, yes 10 years. The less expensive rock is down there for 2 years and does not have nearly the life on it and in the dive video he pulls up some that is only a couple month old and has macro algae, some cora, crabs, snails, etc on it.

As for the question, "what is on live rock cultivated from the ocean that does not exists on base rock which has underwent a cycle", really?? What cycle, what exactly do you think happens when you put base rock into a tank, tub, whatever? The ony thing that will happen is it will get wet, there is nothing to die off to create a cycle.
 
it is my understanding, based on verbage that base rock, either synthetic or dead coral, has been un-dry for so long, that not even dormant things can survive, and thus baking and things of that nature are not necessary, just get the dust off and get it in the tank type event.

Dried rock is recently live rock that has been allowed to dry out, either cause of parasites or chemicals like copper introduced, in an attempt to get those gone. that is why i asked 10000 times if the base rock i bought was base or dry rock, because i didn't want someone else's mistakes in my tank.

the rock in my tank is tampa bay rock through a dude locally that no longer sells, and i have both base rock, and tampa rock, there is a very, very definable difference.

Also side note, base rock is usually less pourus, and beneficial in that way because it is able to handle higher weight loads, and makes it "base" rock. usually boulders and pretty un-spectacular.
 
back to kuren's actual question lol,

all you are doing by introducing a pound of live rock, or some sand is quickening the process of cycling the tank. no matter what you do, you will have a cycle, just a matter of how long it is going to be. If it is a piece of fantastic live rock, and you wanna keep the life on it alive, look into soft cycling on nano-reef.com. more work, and lots of water changes, and a slower cycle for sure, but defiantly worth research.

I did the soft cycle because i had corals on my rock, and inverts like crabs that don't exactly like ammonia/nitrates stuff like that, and really i just had macro loss, but i think the mythrax crab just ate at it too much.
 
kurens said:
great site,great advices,thanks guys:)

Another question:
to cycle my tank with 80lbs base rock should i add few #of live rock and cup of live sand from estabilshed tank? or just start "really fresh" with dry rock without any lr?
Click to expand...

If you put your base rock down and a couple pcs of LR and a cup or 2 of LS from an existing system in the tank to cycle it you will get you off to a great start, adding the shrimp wont hurt. I also used water from existing tanks after water changes when adding a tank , dont know if it did anything but it did not hurt.
 
actually thats a smart move, old water is gonna have the elements needed to feed stuff to get the ecosystem going. definitely will not hurt. the shrimp wouldn't necessarily be necessary if he is gonna throw a chunk of live rock.

probably should make it clear now, i still wouldn't throw livestock in the tank for a month, reguardless of what method you use. once you get '0's, i would make sure it stays that way for a least a week, week and half, to make sure. stuff is way too expensive to feed your bacteria.
 
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